Read through most of these and played many many matches as windfall. I created forsaken to see how much easier it was to successfully defend. It was bar none heads and tails easier than windfall. The statement that there is no bad effect for missing a dodge on windfall is absolutely incorrect. There really is only about a 25% chance at a random dodge, but a 50% chance at a random parry. Make it a four way parry and all problems are solved. Well at least with this topic.
I agree a four way parry is necessary. I think parry could still function the way it does, but you should have to really know your stuff to pull it off. The fact of the matter is, if someone throws out the same two moves consecutively, you will know how to parry the second attack even if you fail the check, because it has to be the other of literally two options. The very next time you have a 50 50 chance of getting it because of the potential for an alternate attack, assuming that comes from a different direction, which in theory is also a 50 50 chance. The longer a fight against a forsaken goes on, the more difficult he becomes with very little effort. This is the case with other stances but to a far lesser degree. Breaking attacks should also be unparryable, to give people a better reason to use them as alternates, than just for against blocking players.
Long story short; As it is now, its far to easy to use. Parry needs to be quad-directional or it just isnt going to bode well for the game in the long run.
In all this i hope you all consider the fact that forsaken players might be harder to beat because they are more experiencend at fighting games. Not that im saying its a huge factor but its one thats possibly in play imo.
Let me explain what i mean. I'm sure its some people picked a class because they simply liked it more then the others regardless of if they are good at fighting games or not. But for me when the game came out and nothing was yet known, i picked forsaken because the game said it was apperently the most dificult of the 3 to master i'd of picked wich ever one was the 3 star dificulty.
My point being its possible that most people who are avid fighting game players might of almost all been drawn to forsaken seeking chalenge. And when you face one you associate thier strength with the class not knowing they are good at fighters. not saying its the case but its a Mabye that dosent help forsakens cause.
I personally like the forsaken nerf i dont notice it much i always used to try parrying in the direction of the hit even pre-update when omi-parry was more prominent.
what ever changes they make they need to keep it -forsaken has the less valid directions to use thier special ability vs a move then windfall or kalth-
THDante - of course people are better than me. I have no visions of grandeur. In fact, I just really enjoy the game. My evidence is that as the I start to play opponents of equal skill (I grant you this is subjective), parry almost always wins. I try to do an very good job with alternating my attacks, stances, and alternative attacks. My whole deck is built around it. Here is how it plays out. The first round I take, usually easily. Then they just start blocking until continuously until inevitably I get to where they are pretty sure parry will be on their predicted side. At this point I start to peel off being the first attacker. I try to respond to their first move. The problem is they just stand there and don't ever initiate. So, it becomes a boring match. If they do attack, they usually start with a double low or two quick single lows. They do this because since it is the first attack they know it is almost impossible to avoid. If I get into a guarding situation I have to guess 4 directions against 2. Rinse and repeat with any decent parry. Sometimes I win, I could go into many other strategies to counter parry, but I think you get the point. It boils down to only looking for 2 directions against 4.
Angelnoir - Agreed. The longer a fight against parry goes the more advantage to parry. The good parry will have me having to move to stance 2 half way through the first round. I will be knocking them down quick first round. But they are just lookin left versus right. So they slow play.
Seriously at this point if you don't think Forsaken is brokenly overpowered compared to every other class its clear you have no idea what you're talking about, I'm not even saying that to be smug. Discord communities test it, users test it, youtubers test it, everyones been testing this absurd ability like wild. The results are always the same, Forsaken takes a shit on every other class.
Every other ability needs so many potentially useless and minute details of a deck to be understood before you could confidently pull off defensive abilities without punish, and then they get momentum for a potential of 0-40 DMG.
Forsaken just needs mediocre knowledge at best and just with that, it will lead into over 120 fucking damage with 100% guarantees so long as the defensive ability succeeds. At worst, you can just guess and get phenomenal returns just off luck because it still guarantees.
The punish window for parry isn't even half a second while the actual fucking ability itself lasts for almost an entire second.
Why is this even a discussion still? The ability needs a casting speed nerf and it needs more endlag.
Oh stop its not that bad anymore. Casting speed nerf? nope its a parry have you ever played any other game ever that has parrying, its always something that needs to happens instantly and you only have a small window to do it.
Adding a chaneling time is a horrible idea as it kills the definition and not only that it would become even more of a guessing game, since you'd need to anticipate fast moves before they are used to make sure the parry window happens at the same time. A parry is a reflexive reaction and some moves are so fast that with a regular brains processing speed reflex parrying a fast hit would be impossible with the delayed casting. perhaps a longer usage gap betwen each failed parry atempt is debatable to avoid lucky spamming..but it would most likely make feinting to efective if the gap betwen use is to big.
And i know some really good windfalls and kalths that beat forsakens and each has something forsaken dosent have. its not always just about how a class interacts with an incoming attack you know many other factors give them value.
A windfall will go fast attacks and light to mid weight gear to fully take advantage of thier kit and when they do they will and should...
- leach (malus) your stamina. - loose less stanima due to fewer heavy moves and lighter gear. - regain stamina faster. - stops tracking (gold link imput) on most heavy moves as you force a stance change in your opponent canceling the flow in most cases. - scale with its own moves better then other classes (obviously) .. ( if you dont use alot of windfall moves as a windfall your denying yourself valuable damage scaling since most moves in thier style scale well with dexterity and movement. So the class wants you to be light and fast, you arent forced to do so but if you dont you are fighting what the style wants) - best to run away and heal since you can run away with a tiny bit of stam left since sprinting wont cost as much. - faster normal doge due to light weight.
-Most importantly FORCING unwanted stance directions on your opponent.. yes im terrified of using heavy hits on a windfall that does this correctly they will normal doge away and single or double ability doge left or right to make me face them in thier desired stance or do the opposite, adbility doge a haymaker and normal doge to the desired angle forcing an automatic stance switch on my part, they will lead the dance. most people dont even do this and cry that thier class is weak.
-And for the cherry on top when 3v3 comes (as youve all surely experienced with a friend in pve) as opposed to kalth and forsaken when a sucessfull ability is used by a windfall you can hit your friend by accident.. WOW how about that! Windfall will be the best class to make enemy team players hit eachother!
they control stamina and positioning to a higher degree then forsaken and kalth could ever hope to do and so much more.
Also Seriously though does no one understand thats its ok for some classes to be better then others, the key here is there is a dificulty chart 1 star 2 star 3 star. Its safe to assume it was always intended for some classes to be easyer to play so the unfamiliar to fighters could play and not feel overwhelmed.
would you all be happy if they chaged it to windfall 3 stars kalth 2 stars and forsaken 1 star? problem solved right?
having said that i honestly would not mind a longer delay betwen each failed parry atempt and and perhaps a slightly smaller window to connect them no more. if after that moves like side kick piss you off then ask for the move to be modified. I personally embrase valid nerfs and i embrased the nerf that a vertical hits now needs to mirror direction the incoming hit. it should of been the case for all moves Since launch. Better late then never.
Now even if you say its still a tad strong its fine but clam down its not that bad and definetly not "brokenly overpowered"
This is exactly why I felt like this was really just a high level problem, (again, nothing to do with elitism) because there are people who still dont see it as a problem. I am going to make sure to record the next high level match I play against a good forsaken. I am certain that you will see why its really problematic.
It's quite glaring. Mechanically there is just no way to defend against someone who parries your every second or third move, and frankly, dodges and dodge moves do not always pull off correctly, even if activated in time. Parries are the only ability in which timing really isn't all that important. The time the ability is active is so broad that unlike with other abilities, slowing down and sacrificing goldchains will not improve your chances against it.
What's more, it is instantly active, (although two of the others are also like this, it mechanically is part of what breaks forsaken). I understand why people are comparing them but really, what makes windfall strong is not applicable here. Let me explain.
When someone dodges me with windfall, even if they change my stance by changing positions to me, I always have the option to follow up with another attack, and usually I can make an educated guess which one will score me another hit and let me continue my chain. One of my favorites is a low dodge sweep, especially for side-dodge spammers. Windfall is immediately counterable to the point where it can even provide you with no damage at all regardless of having hidden moves waiting to be used. Not so with forsaken.
The guarantee on a successful parry is an open opportunity to start a new chain, or even switch to a weapon with a completely different deck. It can take, depending on how good the opponent is at hiding his deck configuration, between 2 and 6 times seeing a string to really know it and use it to your own advantage, but with forsaken, you can completely pre-emptively counter every string by move 1. Not that they do, because that might be ill advised, but they can, which literally forces an opponent to fight with only openers and alternates. Thats a huge advantage to be able to completely cripple someone after only seeing 8 moves. Of course most will take between 12 and 20, just to start but that is still ridiculously fast to be full countered after every move. Lasting 3 rounds against a high level forsaken is just not comparable to a high level windfall. There is not a windfall yet who can consistently beat me.
Stagger could be op like that too for the same reasons, but since dodge attack properties are something I counter all the time with my deck, It falls into simply having a slightly higher skill cieling than windfall. Khalt is crazy, at high level, but I am not sure that I'd call what it does op since using it doesnt necessarily take any action. The follow ups to it are reactable just like anything else, and unlike other abilities, it never forces a recovery. All in all, I just don't see the other stances as abusable, but parry I most certainly see that way.
If I were to make changes to parry, I'd say make it four directional, and instead of a flat time lock on a successful parry, maybe force the recovery time of the attack that is being parried. This will make it have a low impact on faster moves (like the other stances) but on longer moves which are more likely to be parried, it will still give that nice long window of opportunity.
I could see that balancing the divide, and besides, alot of people who play forsaken are already so sure that the change is coming, because of how easy it is to parry (and they are usually quite open about how easy it is)
That they already parry quad directionally whenever possible so that they are ready. It functionally works the same way, apparently.
At any rate I will post a video as soon as possible putting the discrepency on display. I'm sure more people will understand then, as really good forsaken are rare still. Hell, maybe someone will come up with a counter that I missed.
I would also like to note because it was brought up earlier, that parries in most fighting/oofe games have a startup/cast time. Dark souls and bloodborne both are good examples.
Oh stop its not that bad anymore. Casting speed nerf? nope its a parry have you ever played any other game ever that has parrying, its always something that needs to happens instantly and you only have a small window to do it.
Now even if you say its still a tad strong its fine but clam down its not that bad and definetly not "brokenly overpowered"
Jesus christ look at this point I've had this discussion an almost uncountable amount of times.
People have discussed the OP traits of parry like mad. Buffering off parry? "lol just feint them"? At this point if you don't get it you're the equivalent of a wall because people have been talking about it like mad.
Let's make a new masterpost for this site.
Option Select
The ability for parry user to fuck up a parry and not get punished. The game will automatically choose the corresponding action. Did you miss the parry? It will avoid punishment with a dodge. Did you connect the parry? It will immediately hit them by buffering and canceling parry endlag by leading it into animation windup for a guaranteed punish.
Forsaken is the only class with a tech this powerful and this easy to do that plays in conjunction with various other attacks and abilities. As the video says, use this with Grab Punch? Basically punish everyone alive with the same action over and over.
Activation Time Increase
Parry is an ability that, as I said, needs an activation windup increase. Against fast moves you basically have a 50/50 chance constantly to land a parry because you get to just wildly parry willy nilly to punish them for even wanting to hit you. You can see I get hit by a light sweep and because of it I punish a gold-linked jab, which leads to potential of 120 DMG.
The fact that you can react out of pressure by completely negating all neutral and having it suddenly be colossally in your favor is a problem IMO. I feel you should be on the defensive and then get a parry rather than just suddenly WHEEE LOL.
Increase Endlag
Parry is an ability where, even if you fuck up and can't do an Option Select, you STILL don't have to worry, because you have enough time to land a buffered second parry, and still have time to punish. A windfall buffers a second dodge? They get hit in the face. Kahlt buffers a second absorb? Get hit in the face, and the damage from the previous absorb is compounded into the following hit. Staggers isn't even a defensive ability to get a buffer.
Forsaken is literally the only class to get the ability to fuck up in a panic and still get rewards out of it.
The only time you can pressure them successful as a punish, is with jabs. And remember at the moment if you jab them it instantly leads into a 50/50 where they can get lucky and take your 30 DMG jab and hit you for like 120 DMG.
AND PLEASE, REMEMBER ALSO that parry in itself punishes feints with buffers, and also punishes mix ups and delays due to the massive amount of time the parry actually lingers.
Increasing the endlag and activation IMO would help it a lot.
Getting rid of the tech like Option Select and Buffering would damage the class critically, and I do not want them to do that.
The nerfs should come in increments to keep balance in case the potential of overnerfing comes about but if you sit there telling the devs the class is fine you are delusional. It's OK for the class to mechanically be strong, and given its the only one that guarantees, it is strong.
The problem stems from the extra shit it brings to the table, going from strong to basically being a complete outlier.
TH - You say "they will normal doge away and single or double ability doge left or right"
This is my point exactly. With parry it is ALWAYS left or right. 4 way parry, whether they do it or not, with the same requirements as avoid, will solve the problem. Or, if i do successfully avoid, the opponent should have a signifant recover time. It is just completely backwards. Meaning if you have a 1 in 4 chance the reward should be hire if you succed. If you have a 1 in 2 as compared to 1 in 4, the reward should be lower. Instead, the way it is now is that the 1 in 2 has a higher re and the 1 in 4 has a lower reward. My high level fights against Khalt (although i am trying to figure out how they absorb while they are attacking) and Windfall are fun, because they are more balanced. Not so much against Forsaken.
-" dodges and dodge moves do not always pull off correctly even if activated in time. "
Then maybe the question is not only are forsakens to strong but is windfall to inconsistent? cause if so perhaps a change of buff/ might be need for windfall in its stead ?
-" The guarantee on a successful parry is an open opportunity to start a new chain... "
Well yea.. Thing is with windfall you can to ( go fight risin for example since the computer can execute perfect ability dodges, she will start combos on you) it shows that its not impossible but the window is smaller, why i stressed its important for a windfall to be fast and stay true to its intended kit for maximum efficiency. If they could deliver heavy hits after an ability dodge they'd be a bit like forsakens in a sense with movement (not literally but you know what i mean)..
You could give windfall longer i-frames with an ability dodge but its a bad idea i feel (unless its cancelable with the input of an attack) otherwise it will lock you in a longer dodge animation removing time on your precious window to counter attack. Its a trade off making it easier to get a consistent ability dodge if you do it to soon, but on the other hand if you do it at the right time all that extra i-frame/dodge animation after the successfully ability dodge is wasted time.
-" I would also like to note because it was brought up earlier, that parries in most fighting/oofe games have a startup/cast time. Dark souls and bloodborne both are good examples. "
I sorta meant fighting games but in the end its exactly the same. ( if you can call shooting someone in the face with a one handed shotgun a parry) still its not really the action, its the mechanic. attack incoming -> press button at the same time attack is about to hit. the animation for dark souls is a tad longer but attacks in general in dark souls are slower then absolver so its parry is scaled in consequence.
Also you keep saying high level play this and that. i hope your combat trial lvl is 1200+.
-"If I were to make changes to parry, I'd say make it four directional, and instead of a flat time lock on a successful parry, maybe force the recovery time of the attack that is being parried. This will make it have a low impact on faster moves (like the other stances) but on longer moves which are more likely to be parried, it will still give that nice long window of opportunity."
Those are honestly good suggestions. though one of the two I'm sure one would be enough. As i keep saying it might not be all about nerfing a class but reworking or buffing another or a mix of the two in small doses.
-"The ability for parry user to fuck up a parry and not get punished. The game will automatically choose the corresponding action. Did you miss the parry? It will avoid punishment with a dodge. Did you connect the parry? It will immediately hit them by buffering and canceling parry endlag by leading it into animation windup for a guaranteed punish.
Forsaken is the only class with a tech this powerful and this easy to do that plays in conjunction with various other attacks and abilities. As the video says, use this with Grab Punch? Basically punish everyone alive with the same action over and over."
Seriously? this isn't viable at all. If they miss the parry and are getting hit normal dodging away is not a guaranty, you'll most likely get interrupted (maybe with 4 iframes it will which would be bad)
And grab punch what a joke. In the video ( the end part ) if you go frame by frame you see the other player being restored to neutral before grab punch hits. you can most likely do an absorb, dodge, parry or charge move. I'm sure you all know this but I'll explain it for those who don't when you use a super armor (charge) moves like grab punch if you feint it you still get the absorb effect. So in this case after the parry when the opponent is initiating grab punch you'll have a window to initiate your charge move and feint, you will absorb-tank the hit and not be flinched giving you a faster neutral or a counter hit should you choose to not feint.
-"Parry is an ability that, as I said, needs an activation windup increase. Against fast moves you basically have a 50/50 chance constantly to land a parry because you get to just wildly parry willy nilly to punish them for even wanting to hit you. You can see I get hit by a light sweep and because of it I punish a gold-linked jab, which leads to potential of 120 DMG."
NO a longer activation will make it a 100% guessing/anticipation game against fast moves, the parry speed is scaled in consequence to the game's pace. slowing it down will make reflex parrying a fast hit impossible. Angelnoir and Burnt's suggestions of 4 directions and changing flat time lock on a successful parry to forcing the recovery time of the attack that is being parried make way more sense.
In that first gif where you parried the gold link and did a second wasteful parry, the guy clearly had time to respond, He had a chance since you did a second parry an ruined you chances at a heavy hit, but he f'ed it up and got punished, its legit. He could of parried the right direction or charge hit+feint or used a move that made him duck.
-"I feel you should be on the defensive and then get a parry rather than just suddenly WHEEE LOL."
although you could honestly argue that everything is a synonym of everything, what you mention is more along the lines of blocking. A parry is a forestall which means ( by definition to stop something from happening ) blocking is defending against the result of an attack as parry is cutting of that attack. Example lifting a shield towards a sword hit rather then simply holding it infront of you.
-"Parry is an ability where, even if you fuck up and can't do an Option Select, you STILL don't have to worry, because you have enough time to land a buffered second parry, and still have time to punish"
False. And you saved me the time of providing evidence, you did it for me. In your second gif after the successful parry the guy wastes some precious time of his opening with the second useless parry and then you can see the other guy being returned to neutral and taking a few steps back. He had time to react and spent it standing still and moving backwards. its his bad.
he did that second parry so fast because the first was successful and caused a reset, but that second parry failed so he got stuck with he end lag and gave the other guy a chance to react or retaliate.
-"Increasing the endlag and activation IMO would help it a lot."
It would be a buff also. with longer endlag and option select if you try and spam parry left to right super fast it wouldn't let you and and on a successful parry it would save you from losing valuable time on your window of opportunity with the second useless parry and get you right into attacking.
Same thing with how long it lingers if you reduce that time its less time wasted in their window with a failed parry. So reduced linger = faster recover after a failed parry. You really want this?
-"Forsaken is literally the only class to get the ability to fuck up in a panic and still get rewards out of it."
See thats what i mean you over amplify things to such a degree, you know for a fact it possible for a kalth or windfall to panic ability and it will turn out well, I Grant you the odds are less then forsaken but you make it sound like its a 0% chance to get a panic reward unless your a forsaken. Untrue.
I'm not saying to the devs the class is fine i clearly said its not that bad, meanig go easy on the nerfs it dosent need a hard nerf like something "ridiculously overpowered" would need. I'm telling the devs and you and everyone its not that bad don't over react and over nerf. As you said..... what ever comes should be in increments.
4 directions is not a bad idea. Or perhaps a reverse to the stamina malus and a buff/change to windfalls consistence.
"The problem is they just stand there and don't ever initiate"
On that they are just lame unfortunately not as a class but as people, its like saying if you decide to not attack no one does anything? I just leave those matches, if people have that much time to waste its clearly because they arent playing to have fun but to fulfill a false sence of achivement.
And by double ability doging i meant this: i throw a heavy hit at you and you normal doge in a diagonal to the side, then use your ability doge to position yourself in the stance your opponent has you feel is the easyest to counter. I ment that more as a stance control thing since heavy haymakers and kicks are easily dogable with normal doge so you can use your ability doge for positioning afterwards.
If we balance the game to be centered as Forsaken being the base line the game would be dumbed down beyond belief, as just simply buffering will lend you critical combos. We may as well be 1.06 at that point, as simple initiators and escapes will exist at the flick of a stick and will result in constant stick flicking.
Parry is rarely, if ever, instant. Street Fighter has 3 startup activation frames IIRC. Tekken's is situational, depending on character parrying, whether its a Punch, Kick, Elbow, Knee, the sequence, and each optional parry will have various activation frames. You don't press it at the same time. You press it preemptively. This is in practically all fighters. The only game with reaction parry ability (besides this one)being instant in my recollection was Dark Souls 2 with the fucking banana and that got to the point where they straight up nerfed it because it was too broken. Every other souls parry was to be done preemptively, and for success typically after baits. It's almost like reaction parries are stupid because everything has a committed animation and seeing the startup lets you just panic spam it for easy punishment. Hopefully you see my point.
Implying high CT level means high level play is stupid. You can be fucking CT 2 and if you have a history of competitive fighting in any sort of scene be it local, national, or world wide you'll still be able to enter high level play. Just as easily, there are troves of high level CT players that assume "lol I play a lot that must mean my 'labbing' matters." when really they don't know fucking anything.
I'm only CT like, 50 and the reason for that is I spent a good few days just making a deck, well over 50 hours labbing the actual way hit detection works pre-1.07, relabbing it AFTER 1.07, and adding onto the deck. This will effectively be an infinite cycle. Never assume CT is important because it is not, No level is important, if they can back up their statements with things you can't refute, just realize everyone can be wrong. This is super important, the amount of entitled "high CT players" is absolutely staggering. CT doesn't matter and simply won't.
The Four directions will steal WIndfalls identity. 3 is already asking for a bit but 4 is honestly overwhelming. A low sweep from the left is inbound. The fuck do you parry towards? Left? Down? Up? At that point its just windfall with better guarantees. It's fine for Forsaken to have just two and be mechanically strong, but for it to keep that trait it needs to offer something, and that something should be punish windows that let you hit them with critically damaging moves. The issue is those windows do not exist and instead you get less than half a second. The two directions give it identity, we don't need to redefine it to just be windfall. The game needs variety.
Yea thanks i've noticed i got caugt with my pants down by it before. So now i had the great idea to copy paste the text to note pad before i hit post or edit i just waited to see if anything would be done first.
Only does it on big text thought i can edit small posts fine its weird.
I agree that forsaken is not as broken as some posts in this forum say, it only needs some tweaks. The active parry time is the biggest issue for me. I remember one time where i used a fairly slow move, front kick, around the same time the enemy raised his arms for a parry and he still got me after what felt like a whole second. Any other defensive ability would be long over by the time my move would have connected. I think reducing the active parry time while keeping the duration for the parry animation would be enough.
Just spamming random parries is not as effective as some people mentioned. I find matches where the enemy just throws out parries are the easiest, they get punished often enough for guessing wrong and often miss their opportunity to hit me after parrying me.
About kahlts using absorb after getting parried: I play kahlt and i tried it often after getting parried but it never worked so far. Maybe you didnt use your move fast enough after parrying or maybe I just messed up everytime.
About kahlts using absorb after getting parried: I play kahlt and i tried it often after getting parried but it never worked so far. Maybe you didnt use your move fast enough after parrying or maybe I just messed up everytime.
honestly i could of initiated the attack a milisecond sooner but i chose this attack cause a milisecond late or not if he can absorb it what chance does a slower move have against good reaction. :P
You not buffering doesn't make the ability not good it just means you are fucking up. A Kahlt cannot act out of parried frames to absorb. He is parried. For Christ's sake.
"Grab punch a joke, Option Select isn't viable at all"
boi are you fucking kidding me lol.
"Windfall and Kahlt can panic and it turns out well".
Kahlt literally gets hit in the fucking face AND takes the damage from prior ADDED ONTO the current hit. Windfall has tight confirm windows to begin with, exasperating them with an additional waste of stamina topped with the endlag will not turn out well.
Parry, however, as you can see, will. He did not have time to respond in the image I linked, my jab initiated first even though I used my ability twice in a panic. Parry has noticeably small endlag to the point you can do that. He's clearly mashing the buttons, he's already mid-combo with his goldlink.
Look believe what you want at this point, it's clear you're just gonna disregard my shit, I presented parts of my piece, and its enough for me since discussion is clearly going nowhere. I just hope other people are aware how fucking absurd this ability is. There isn't a single curator for the game that is saying parry isn't incredibly broken.
"Parry is rarely, if ever, instant. Street Fighter has 3 startup activation frames .."
ok sure if you say so
those parries are definetly not as fast as a forsakens parry hahaha
Im aware CT lvl dosent = skill. but it certainly = experience. not because your a street fighter pro and your subconsious is tuned to fighting games that you've lived many battle on absolver and that you know how the game should be changed or touched.
again experience not skill. so if you wana go around and say everyone is at low lvl play, you better have experience gained by countless fights to back it up not just your general skill at fighters.
lol BOI im definetly not kidding you grab punch is slow. and lol i left that small delay to imput to justify that the double failed parry wont get you a hit after if the player dosent suck. if the guy was able to absorb that fast hit how is the guy in your gif not able to? the window is smaler then you imagine. and in your giff the guy had time to react he parries the wrong direction. lol
"Parry, however, as you can see, will. He did not have time to respond in the image I linked"
he did he totaly did. you blind?
and no i see some of your points i do. but half are hollow and ignorance based. and you assume to much. " he was clearly mashing" you dont know that. your gif and mine are almost smiliar in time spent only difference is the guy i was fighting didnt suck.
and i feel the same about you no matter what people point at, you just wana over react and be told your right.
anyway i personally feel kalth is the most OP when well played. and that the 2 suggestions i named from angenoir and brunt are the ones i agree with more. and personally i feel parry is in a decent place right now ( maybe a super mini nerf to forsaken and super mini buff to windfall for consistency)
I actually switched over from windfall to parry because it's easier to use. I actually refrain from using my parry ability sometimes because I would block every 2-4th hit, and the opponent would keep going as if not knowing there is a feint move. And unless I'm playing against someone exceptional, alternating my attacks with feints every other move -->every third move--> and breaking my gold chain combo messes with the parry response for most of my forsaken opponents.
Having said that, I'm not that good. I mean, I thought I was decent, being good enough to gold chain my combat and sword deck at will, but not enough to know all that meta in that video posted. So I'm definitely not even near the top echelon of Absolvers, but even at my level I know that forsaken are generally more difficult to deal with (well not me anymore, ever since switching over to mouse and keyboard, defensive abilities became much more difficult to pull off).
I don't really see a viable and balancing way of nerfing the parry to be on equal terms; instead, what about adding a new ability for each class? A new offensive or defensive maneuver can more easily balance out this situation, and add extra variety to the arena.
Anyone defending parry in it's current state simply doesn't know what they're talking about.
If you parry buffer, which you have no excuse to not do since there's no downside and the inputs are easy, you have a guaranteed high-damage attack (and I mean guaranteed, it's completely uncounterable), which outweighs any other reward for a defensive ability in the game by several times.
On top of that, it is objectively easier than windfall to use; any good player will use mostly horizontal attacks, which can only be dodged from a single direction with a tighter window than parrying. Windfall does very well against straight attacks, but is still objectively worse than parry by virtue of having a massively smaller reward; the stamina drain is irrelevant so long as shockwave is in the game. Khalt is somewhat easier, but has the smallest reward out of any ability, and stagger doesn't count because it sucks against anyone even mediocre (as a result of its overloaded back special making the rest of the kit have to be useless).
Reducing the maximum length of the parried attack to only allow medium-fast hits to be guaranteed would most likely balance the class. It would still be oppressive at high levels, but not quite as painful.
As a final point, feinting counters everything except for Stagger equally. This isn't a specific counter for parry, nor is it more effective against parry than any other style.
Reducing the maximum length of the parried attack to only allow medium-fast hits to be guaranteed would most likely balance the class. It would still be oppressive at high levels, but not quite as painful. .
So the only reason people find parry unbalanced is because the parry code runs parallel with other actions? Sounds like a simple change in the IF/OR Function for parry. I wonder why they don't change that?
Reducing the maximum length of the parried attack to only allow medium-fast hits to be guaranteed would most likely balance the class. It would still be oppressive at high levels, but not quite as painful. .
So the only reason people find parry unbalanced is because the parry code runs parallel with other actions? Sounds like a simple change in the IF/OR Function for parry. I wonder why they don't change that?
It's not quite that way, parry buffering basically cancels your end of the stun (since standard parry stuns both players equally, resetting to neutral). It's assumed that this is an intended feature of parrying, because of the how long it's been around and the fact that parry has little other reward, but it's so long that it guarantees a huge amount of damage (it's just the right length to hit Side Kick) with very little effort (all you have to do is buffer an attack after parrying).
It's not quite that way, parry buffering basically cancels your end of the stun (since standard parry stuns both players equally, resetting to neutral). It's assumed that this is an intended feature of parrying, because of the how long it's been around and the fact that parry has little other reward, but it's so long that it guarantees a huge amount of damage (it's just the right length to hit Side Kick) with very little effort (all you have to do is buffer an attack after parrying).
Wait what? I'm aware of the feature and have been using it, but my coding is rather weak. If parry just follows a function, so that both party member's are "neutral," or reach some kind of static equilibrium, then shouldn't the person being parried be able to buffer an attack as well? From what I understand of Absolver parry, from a youtuber's analysis and my own experience, is that parry buffering generates two commands that produces separate values. And the engine will perform the outcome that follows the function set, which is taking the "more favorable condition" (of that I am assuming it is a IF/OR command function).
Coding is just a list of functions. Even if the dev team directly copied a generic-parry.ini file, these people do this for a living; hard-coded or not, I'm sure they can take apart and build a spankin' new parry code, if they were paid to do so. Adding a condition for the parry command prompt, or making a general condition for which command to prioritize (i.e. an attack always initiates), then it should fix the problem.
I'm sure the task at hand is much more complicated with the added pressure of server stability and new game content. It could be that the problem with parry really only arises at a high enough skill level (and at that point, we can work ways around it: git gud or de-rank), so getting more people to buy/come back to Absolver will take a higher priority. Since coding is very tedious work, it will take time to read through the errors and revamp the system. And considering this company has a game with a AAA potential and expectancy, they should be swamped.
Or it could be that the parry prompt actually was copied and there are legal issues, or they just don't give a sh*t. I like to believe that they are trolling all of us.
It's not quite that way, parry buffering basically cancels your end of the stun (since standard parry stuns both players equally, resetting to neutral). It's assumed that this is an intended feature of parrying, because of the how long it's been around and the fact that parry has little other reward, but it's so long that it guarantees a huge amount of damage (it's just the right length to hit Side Kick) with very little effort (all you have to do is buffer an attack after parrying).
Wait what? I'm aware of the feature and have been using it, but my coding is rather weak. If parry just follows a function, so that both party member's are "neutral," or reach some kind of static equilibrium, then shouldn't the person being parried be able to buffer an attack as well? From what I understand of Absolver parry, from a youtuber's analysis and my own experience, is that parry buffering generates two commands that produces separate values. And the engine will perform the outcome that follows the function set, which is taking the "more favorable condition" (of that I am assuming it is a IF/OR command function).
Coding is just a list of functions. Even if the dev team directly copied a generic-parry.ini file, these people do this for a living; hard-coded or not, I'm sure they can take apart and build a spankin' new parry code, if they were paid to do so. Adding a condition for the parry command prompt, or making a general condition for which command to prioritize (i.e. an attack always initiates), then it should fix the problem.
I'm using gaming lingo rather than coding terms, which may be the disconnect here: "reset to neutral" refers to the three phases of combat (inverted for the opponent) of advantaged, neutral, and disadvantaged. An unbuffered parry stuns both players equally, and thus nullifies (dis)advantage for both players, while a buffered parry guarantees a landed attack (of speed up to and including side kick), thereby granting advantage to the player performing it.
To put this into the most concrete terms I can, without embarrassing myself by trying to use coding terms:
When you activate your parry ability, several things can happen. If you land it successfully, your opponent will be stunned for a time, while you will either activate a buffered (pre-cast) attack nearly instantly (which is parry buffering), or you will suffer an identical stun if you didn't activate an attack within the appropriate window of time, and either way you will gain a small amount of stamina. If you are in stun (from this, from hitstun, from blockstun, gravity, earthquake, or having your block broken), no actions can be taken of any kind.
If no attack connects during the active portion of your parry, there is a period of time where you cannot act called an aftercast, after which you will use any attack you attempted to buffer (usually; there's an additional technique called "option select" where if you input a dodge at a certain time you will dodge at the end of the parry aftercast instead of using the buffered attack, but will still cast a buffered attack if the parry is successful, which is sort of silly considering it essentially means that if you perform a certain set of inputs the game will automatically do the right actions at the optimal timing on your behalf).
It does seem that the devs want parry buffering in the game, as without it Forsaken is probably worse than Khalt or Windfall, as either of those can get a punish, even if it is a weak one, and have greater rewards on top of that (though still higher risk on both counts), and conceptually it's not the most problematic. It just has way too much of a reward, and should be dropped down to 80-90 damage range from the 120ish range of side kick in my opinion.
[...] An unbuffered parry stuns both players equally, [...] while a buffered parry guarantees a landed attack (of speed up to and including side kick) [...]
When you activate your parry ability, several things can happen. If you land it successfully, your opponent will be stunned for a time, while you will either activate a buffered (pre-cast) attack nearly instantly (which is parry buffering), or you will suffer an identical stun [...].
If no attack connects during the active portion of your parry, there is a period of time where you cannot act called an aftercast, after which you will use any attack you attempted to buffer (usually; there's an additional technique called "option select" where if you input a dodge at a certain time you will dodge at the end of the parry aftercast instead of using the buffered attack, but will still cast a buffered attack if the parry is successful, which is sort of silly considering it essentially means that if you perform a certain set of inputs the game will automatically do the right actions at the optimal timing on your behalf).
[...] It just has way too much of a reward, and should be dropped down to 80-90 damage range from the 120ish range of side kick in my opinion.
Cheers mate! You responded with much more maturity and self-restraint than I have. Edited your quote to the sheer information. Good stuff here. You definitely know your gamer lingo. I have never knew about that option select either, will have to try it out. Oh and I don't know coding language either, I just used math terms. haha
So from what I'm getting at...is that there is no IF/OR command or some kind of condition command at all. If a group of commands are received at roughly the same time as a parry command, then the engine just pushes them all through. hahaha
Then yea, I guess reducing the stun time duration will help. I wonder how this will affect the npc's as they use the same skills as us, and if it will make it more difficult for newbies.
Comments
Long story short; As it is now, its far to easy to use. Parry needs to be quad-directional or it just isnt going to bode well for the game in the long run.
Let me explain what i mean.
I'm sure its some people picked a class because they simply liked it more then the others regardless of if they are good at fighting games or not. But for me when the game came out and nothing was yet known, i picked forsaken because the game said it was apperently the most dificult of the 3 to master i'd of picked wich ever one was the 3 star dificulty.
My point being its possible that most people who are avid fighting game players might of almost all been drawn to forsaken seeking chalenge. And when you face one you associate thier strength with the class not knowing they are good at fighters. not saying its the case but its a Mabye that dosent help forsakens cause.
I personally like the forsaken nerf i dont notice it much i always used to try parrying in the direction of the hit even pre-update when omi-parry was more prominent.
what ever changes they make they need to keep it -forsaken has the less valid directions to use thier special ability vs a move then windfall or kalth-
Angelnoir - Agreed. The longer a fight against parry goes the more advantage to parry. The good parry will have me having to move to stance 2 half way through the first round. I will be knocking them down quick first round. But they are just lookin left versus right. So they slow play.
Every other ability needs so many potentially useless and minute details of a deck to be understood before you could confidently pull off defensive abilities without punish, and then they get momentum for a potential of 0-40 DMG.
Forsaken just needs mediocre knowledge at best and just with that, it will lead into over 120 fucking damage with 100% guarantees so long as the defensive ability succeeds. At worst, you can just guess and get phenomenal returns just off luck because it still guarantees.
The punish window for parry isn't even half a second while the actual fucking ability itself lasts for almost an entire second.
Why is this even a discussion still? The ability needs a casting speed nerf and it needs more endlag.
Adding a chaneling time is a horrible idea as it kills the definition and not only that it would become even more of a guessing game, since you'd need to anticipate fast moves before they are used to make sure the parry window happens at the same time. A parry is a reflexive reaction and some moves are so fast that with a regular brains processing speed reflex parrying a fast hit would be impossible with the delayed casting. perhaps a longer usage gap betwen each failed parry atempt is debatable to avoid lucky spamming..but it would most likely make feinting to efective if the gap betwen use is to big.
And i know some really good windfalls and kalths that beat forsakens and each has something forsaken dosent have. its not always just about how a class interacts with an incoming attack you know many other factors give them value.
A windfall will go fast attacks and light to mid weight gear to fully take advantage of thier kit
and when they do they will and should...
- leach (malus) your stamina.
- loose less stanima due to fewer heavy moves and lighter gear.
- regain stamina faster.
- stops tracking (gold link imput) on most heavy moves as you force a stance change in your opponent canceling the flow in most cases.
- scale with its own moves better then other classes (obviously) ..
( if you dont use alot of windfall moves as a windfall your denying yourself valuable damage scaling since most moves in thier style scale well with dexterity and movement. So the class wants you to be light and fast, you arent forced to do so but if you dont you are fighting what the style wants)
- best to run away and heal since you can run away with a tiny bit of stam left since sprinting wont cost as much.
- faster normal doge due to light weight.
-Most importantly FORCING unwanted stance directions on your opponent.. yes im terrified of using heavy hits on a windfall that does this correctly they will normal doge away and single or double ability doge left or right to make me face them in thier desired stance or do the opposite, adbility doge a haymaker and normal doge to the desired angle forcing an automatic stance switch on my part, they will lead the dance. most people dont even do this and cry that thier class is weak.
-And for the cherry on top when 3v3 comes (as youve all surely experienced with a friend in pve) as opposed to kalth and forsaken when a sucessfull ability is used by a windfall you can hit your friend by accident.. WOW how about that! Windfall will be the best class to make enemy team players hit eachother!
they control stamina and positioning to a higher degree then forsaken and kalth could ever hope to do and so much more.
Also Seriously though does no one understand thats its ok for some classes to be better then others, the key here is there is a dificulty chart 1 star 2 star 3 star. Its safe to assume it was always intended for some classes to be easyer to play so the unfamiliar to fighters could play and not feel overwhelmed.
would you all be happy if they chaged it to windfall 3 stars kalth 2 stars and forsaken 1 star? problem solved right?
having said that i honestly would not mind a longer delay betwen each failed parry atempt and and perhaps a slightly smaller window to connect them no more. if after that moves like side kick piss you off then ask for the move to be modified. I personally embrase valid nerfs and i embrased the nerf that a vertical hits now needs to mirror direction the incoming hit. it should of been the case for all moves Since launch. Better late then never.
Now even if you say its still a tad strong its fine but clam down its not that bad and definetly not "brokenly overpowered"
It's quite glaring. Mechanically there is just no way to defend against someone who parries your every second or third move, and frankly, dodges and dodge moves do not always pull off correctly, even if activated in time. Parries are the only ability in which timing really isn't all that important. The time the ability is active is so broad that unlike with other abilities, slowing down and sacrificing goldchains will not improve your chances against it.
What's more, it is instantly active, (although two of the others are also like this, it mechanically is part of what breaks forsaken). I understand why people are comparing them but really, what makes windfall strong is not applicable here. Let me explain.
When someone dodges me with windfall, even if they change my stance by changing positions to me, I always have the option to follow up with another attack, and usually I can make an educated guess which one will score me another hit and let me continue my chain. One of my favorites is a low dodge sweep, especially for side-dodge spammers. Windfall is immediately counterable to the point where it can even provide you with no damage at all regardless of having hidden moves waiting to be used. Not so with forsaken.
The guarantee on a successful parry is an open opportunity to start a new chain, or even switch to a weapon with a completely different deck. It can take, depending on how good the opponent is at hiding his deck configuration, between 2 and 6 times seeing a string to really know it and use it to your own advantage, but with forsaken, you can completely pre-emptively counter every string by move 1. Not that they do, because that might be ill advised, but they can, which literally forces an opponent to fight with only openers and alternates. Thats a huge advantage to be able to completely cripple someone after only seeing 8 moves. Of course most will take between 12 and 20, just to start but that is still ridiculously fast to be full countered after every move. Lasting 3 rounds against a high level forsaken is just not comparable to a high level windfall. There is not a windfall yet who can consistently beat me.
Stagger could be op like that too for the same reasons, but since dodge attack properties are something I counter all the time with my deck, It falls into simply having a slightly higher skill cieling than windfall. Khalt is crazy, at high level, but I am not sure that I'd call what it does op since using it doesnt necessarily take any action. The follow ups to it are reactable just like anything else, and unlike other abilities, it never forces a recovery. All in all, I just don't see the other stances as abusable, but parry I most certainly see that way.
If I were to make changes to parry, I'd say make it four directional, and instead of a flat time lock on a successful parry, maybe force the recovery time of the attack that is being parried. This will make it have a low impact on faster moves (like the other stances) but on longer moves which are more likely to be parried, it will still give that nice long window of opportunity.
I could see that balancing the divide, and besides, alot of people who play forsaken are already so sure that the change is coming, because of how easy it is to parry (and they are usually quite open about how easy it is)
That they already parry quad directionally whenever possible so that they are ready. It functionally works the same way, apparently.
At any rate I will post a video as soon as possible putting the discrepency on display. I'm sure more people will understand then, as really good forsaken are rare still. Hell, maybe someone will come up with a counter that I missed.
People have discussed the OP traits of parry like mad. Buffering off parry? "lol just feint them"? At this point if you don't get it you're the equivalent of a wall because people have been talking about it like mad.
Let's make a new masterpost for this site.
Option Select
The ability for parry user to fuck up a parry and not get punished. The game will automatically choose the corresponding action. Did you miss the parry? It will avoid punishment with a dodge. Did you connect the parry? It will immediately hit them by buffering and canceling parry endlag by leading it into animation windup for a guaranteed punish.
Forsaken is the only class with a tech this powerful and this easy to do that plays in conjunction with various other attacks and abilities. As the video says, use this with Grab Punch? Basically punish everyone alive with the same action over and over.
Activation Time Increase
Parry is an ability that, as I said, needs an activation windup increase. Against fast moves you basically have a 50/50 chance constantly to land a parry because you get to just wildly parry willy nilly to punish them for even wanting to hit you. You can see I get hit by a light sweep and because of it I punish a gold-linked jab, which leads to potential of 120 DMG.
The fact that you can react out of pressure by completely negating all neutral and having it suddenly be colossally in your favor is a problem IMO. I feel you should be on the defensive and then get a parry rather than just suddenly WHEEE LOL.
Increase Endlag
Parry is an ability where, even if you fuck up and can't do an Option Select, you STILL don't have to worry, because you have enough time to land a buffered second parry, and still have time to punish. A windfall buffers a second dodge? They get hit in the face. Kahlt buffers a second absorb? Get hit in the face, and the damage from the previous absorb is compounded into the following hit. Staggers isn't even a defensive ability to get a buffer.
Forsaken is literally the only class to get the ability to fuck up in a panic and still get rewards out of it.
The only time you can pressure them successful as a punish, is with jabs. And remember at the moment if you jab them it instantly leads into a 50/50 where they can get lucky and take your 30 DMG jab and hit you for like 120 DMG.
AND PLEASE, REMEMBER ALSO that parry in itself punishes feints with buffers, and also punishes mix ups and delays due to the massive amount of time the parry actually lingers.
Increasing the endlag and activation IMO would help it a lot.
Getting rid of the tech like Option Select and Buffering would damage the class critically, and I do not want them to do that.
The nerfs should come in increments to keep balance in case the potential of overnerfing comes about but if you sit there telling the devs the class is fine you are delusional. It's OK for the class to mechanically be strong, and given its the only one that guarantees, it is strong.
The problem stems from the extra shit it brings to the table, going from strong to basically being a complete outlier.
This is my point exactly. With parry it is ALWAYS left or right. 4 way parry, whether they do it or not, with the same requirements as avoid, will solve the problem. Or, if i do successfully avoid, the opponent should have a signifant recover time. It is just completely backwards. Meaning if you have a 1 in 4 chance the reward should be hire if you succed. If you have a 1 in 2 as compared to 1 in 4, the reward should be lower. Instead, the way it is now is that the 1 in 2 has a higher re and the 1 in 4 has a lower reward. My high level fights against Khalt (although i am trying to figure out how they absorb while they are attacking) and Windfall are fun, because they are more balanced. Not so much against Forsaken.
Angelnoir-
-" dodges and dodge moves do not always pull off correctly even if activated in time. "
Then maybe the question is not only are forsakens to strong but is windfall to inconsistent? cause if so perhaps a change of buff/ might be need for windfall in its stead ?
-" The guarantee on a successful parry is an open opportunity to start a new chain... "
Well yea.. Thing is with windfall you can to ( go fight risin for example since the computer can execute perfect ability dodges, she will start combos on you) it shows that its not impossible but the window is smaller, why i stressed its important for a windfall to be fast and stay true to its intended kit for maximum efficiency. If they could deliver heavy hits after an ability dodge they'd be a bit like forsakens in a sense with movement (not literally but you know what i mean)..
You could give windfall longer i-frames with an ability dodge but its a bad idea i feel (unless its cancelable with the input of an attack) otherwise it will lock you in a longer dodge animation removing time on your precious window to counter attack. Its a trade off making it easier to get a consistent ability dodge if you do it to soon, but on the other hand if you do it at the right time all that extra i-frame/dodge animation after the successfully ability dodge is wasted time.
-" I would also like to note because it was brought up earlier, that parries in most fighting/oofe games have a startup/cast time. Dark souls and bloodborne both are good examples. "
I sorta meant fighting games but in the end its exactly the same. ( if you can call shooting someone in the face with a one handed shotgun a parry) still its not really the action, its the mechanic. attack incoming -> press button at the same time attack is about to hit. the animation for dark souls is a tad longer but attacks in general in dark souls are slower then absolver so its parry is scaled in consequence.
Also you keep saying high level play this and that. i hope your combat trial lvl is 1200+.
-"If I were to make changes to parry, I'd say make it four directional, and instead of a flat time lock on a successful parry, maybe force the recovery time of the attack that is being parried. This will make it have a low impact on faster moves (like the other stances) but on longer moves which are more likely to be parried, it will still give that nice long window of opportunity."
Those are honestly good suggestions. though one of the two I'm sure one would be enough. As i keep saying it might not be all about nerfing a class but reworking or buffing another or a mix of the two in small doses.
-"The ability for parry user to fuck up a parry and not get punished. The game will automatically choose the corresponding action. Did you miss the parry? It will avoid punishment with a dodge. Did you connect the parry? It will immediately hit them by buffering and canceling parry endlag by leading it into animation windup for a guaranteed punish.
Forsaken is the only class with a tech this powerful and this easy to do that plays in conjunction with various other attacks and abilities. As the video says, use this with Grab Punch? Basically punish everyone alive with the same action over and over."
Seriously? this isn't viable at all. If they miss the parry and are getting hit normal dodging away is not a guaranty, you'll most likely get interrupted (maybe with 4 iframes it will which would be bad)
And grab punch what a joke. In the video ( the end part ) if you go frame by frame you see the other player being restored to neutral before grab punch hits. you can most likely do an absorb, dodge, parry or charge move. I'm sure you all know this but I'll explain it for those who don't when you use a super armor (charge) moves like grab punch if you feint it you still get the absorb effect. So in this case after the parry when the opponent is initiating grab punch you'll have a window to initiate your charge move and feint, you will absorb-tank the hit and not be flinched giving you a faster neutral or a counter hit should you choose to not feint.
-"Parry is an ability that, as I said, needs an activation windup increase. Against fast moves you basically have a 50/50 chance constantly to land a parry because you get to just wildly parry willy nilly to punish them for even wanting to hit you. You can see I get hit by a light sweep and because of it I punish a gold-linked jab, which leads to potential of 120 DMG."
NO a longer activation will make it a 100% guessing/anticipation game against fast moves, the parry speed is scaled in consequence to the game's pace. slowing it down will make reflex parrying a fast hit impossible. Angelnoir and Burnt's suggestions of 4 directions and changing flat time lock on a successful parry to forcing the recovery time of the attack that is being parried make way more sense.
In that first gif where you parried the gold link and did a second wasteful parry, the guy clearly had time to respond, He had a chance since you did a second parry an ruined you chances at a heavy hit, but he f'ed it up and got punished, its legit. He could of parried the right direction or charge hit+feint or used a move that made him duck.
-"I feel you should be on the defensive and then get a parry rather than just suddenly WHEEE LOL."
although you could honestly argue that everything is a synonym of everything, what you mention is more along the lines of blocking. A parry is a forestall which means ( by definition to stop something from happening ) blocking is defending against the result of an attack as parry is cutting of that attack. Example lifting a shield towards a sword hit rather then simply holding it infront of you.
-"Parry is an ability where, even if you fuck up and can't do an Option Select, you STILL don't have to worry, because you have enough time to land a buffered second parry, and still have time to punish"
False. And you saved me the time of providing evidence, you did it for me. In your second gif after the successful parry the guy wastes some precious time of his opening with the second useless parry and then you can see the other guy being returned to neutral and taking a few steps back. He had time to react and spent it standing still and moving backwards. its his bad.
he did that second parry so fast because the first was successful and caused a reset, but that second parry failed so he got stuck with he end lag and gave the other guy a chance to react or retaliate.
-"Increasing the endlag and activation IMO would help it a lot."
It would be a buff also. with longer endlag and option select if you try and spam parry left to right super fast it wouldn't let you and and on a successful parry it would save you from losing valuable time on your window of opportunity with the second useless parry and get you right into attacking.
Same thing with how long it lingers if you reduce that time its less time wasted in their window with a failed parry. So reduced linger = faster recover after a failed parry. You really want this?
-"Forsaken is literally the only class to get the ability to fuck up in a panic and still get rewards out of it."
See thats what i mean you over amplify things to such a degree, you know for a fact it possible for a kalth or windfall to panic ability and it will turn out well, I Grant you the odds are less then forsaken but you make it sound like its a 0% chance to get a panic reward unless your a forsaken. Untrue.
I'm not saying to the devs the class is fine i clearly said its not that bad, meanig go easy on the nerfs it dosent need a hard nerf like something "ridiculously overpowered" would need. I'm telling the devs and you and everyone its not that bad don't over react and over nerf. As you said..... what ever comes should be in increments.
-Brunt
4 directions is not a bad idea. Or perhaps a reverse to the stamina malus and a buff/change to windfalls consistence.
"The problem is they just stand there and don't ever initiate"
On that they are just lame unfortunately not as a class but as people, its like saying if you decide to not attack no one does anything? I just leave those matches, if people have that much time to waste its clearly because they arent playing to have fun but to fulfill a false sence of achivement.
And by double ability doging i meant this: i throw a heavy hit at you and you normal doge in a diagonal to the side, then use your ability doge to position yourself in the stance your opponent has you feel is the easyest to counter.
I ment that more as a stance control thing since heavy haymakers and kicks are easily dogable with normal doge so you can use your ability doge for positioning afterwards.
Parry is rarely, if ever, instant. Street Fighter has 3 startup activation frames IIRC. Tekken's is situational, depending on character parrying, whether its a Punch, Kick, Elbow, Knee, the sequence, and each optional parry will have various activation frames. You don't press it at the same time. You press it preemptively. This is in practically all fighters. The only game with reaction parry ability (besides this one)being instant in my recollection was Dark Souls 2 with the fucking banana and that got to the point where they straight up nerfed it because it was too broken. Every other souls parry was to be done preemptively, and for success typically after baits. It's almost like reaction parries are stupid because everything has a committed animation and seeing the startup lets you just panic spam it for easy punishment. Hopefully you see my point.
Implying high CT level means high level play is stupid. You can be fucking CT 2 and if you have a history of competitive fighting in any sort of scene be it local, national, or world wide you'll still be able to enter high level play. Just as easily, there are troves of high level CT players that assume "lol I play a lot that must mean my 'labbing' matters." when really they don't know fucking anything.
I'm only CT like, 50 and the reason for that is I spent a good few days just making a deck, well over 50 hours labbing the actual way hit detection works pre-1.07, relabbing it AFTER 1.07, and adding onto the deck. This will effectively be an infinite cycle. Never assume CT is important because it is not, No level is important, if they can back up their statements with things you can't refute, just realize everyone can be wrong. This is super important, the amount of entitled "high CT players" is absolutely staggering. CT doesn't matter and simply won't.
The Four directions will steal WIndfalls identity. 3 is already asking for a bit but 4 is honestly overwhelming. A low sweep from the left is inbound. The fuck do you parry towards? Left? Down? Up? At that point its just windfall with better guarantees. It's fine for Forsaken to have just two and be mechanically strong, but for it to keep that trait it needs to offer something, and that something should be punish windows that let you hit them with critically damaging moves. The issue is those windows do not exist and instead you get less than half a second. The two directions give it identity, we don't need to redefine it to just be windfall. The game needs variety.
>post baleeted
y a m e r o
Friendly tip don't edit your posts.
Yea thanks
Only does it on big text thought i can edit small posts fine its weird.
I think reducing the active parry time while keeping the duration for the parry animation would be enough.
Just spamming random parries is not as effective as some people mentioned. I find matches where the enemy just throws out parries are the easiest, they get punished often enough for guessing wrong and often miss their opportunity to hit me after parrying me.
About kahlts using absorb after getting parried: I play kahlt and i tried it often after getting parried but it never worked so far. Maybe you didnt use your move fast enough after parrying or maybe I just messed up everytime.
"Grab punch a joke, Option Select isn't viable at all"
boi are you fucking kidding me lol.
"Windfall and Kahlt can panic and it turns out well".
Kahlt literally gets hit in the fucking face AND takes the damage from prior ADDED ONTO the current hit. Windfall has tight confirm windows to begin with, exasperating them with an additional waste of stamina topped with the endlag will not turn out well.
Parry, however, as you can see, will. He did not have time to respond in the image I linked, my jab initiated first even though I used my ability twice in a panic. Parry has noticeably small endlag to the point you can do that. He's clearly mashing the buttons, he's already mid-combo with his goldlink.
Look believe what you want at this point, it's clear you're just gonna disregard my shit, I presented parts of my piece, and its enough for me since discussion is clearly going nowhere. I just hope other people are aware how fucking absurd this ability is. There isn't a single curator for the game that is saying parry isn't incredibly broken.
ok sure if you say so
those parries are definetly not as fast as a forsakens parry hahaha
Im aware CT lvl dosent = skill. but it certainly = experience. not because your a street fighter pro and your subconsious is tuned to fighting games that you've lived many battle on absolver and that you know how the game should be changed or touched.
again experience not skill. so if you wana go around and say everyone is at low lvl play, you better have experience gained by countless fights to back it up not just your general skill at fighters.
lol BOI im definetly not kidding you grab punch is slow. and lol i left that small delay to imput to justify that the double failed parry wont get you a hit after if the player dosent suck. if the guy was able to absorb that fast hit how is the guy in your gif not able to? the window is smaler then you imagine. and in your giff the guy had time to react he parries the wrong direction. lol
"Parry, however, as you can see, will. He did not have time to respond in the image I linked"
he did he totaly did. you blind?
and no i see some of your points i do. but half are hollow and ignorance based. and you assume to much. " he was clearly mashing" you dont know that. your gif and mine are almost smiliar in time spent only difference is the guy i was fighting didnt suck.
and i feel the same about you no matter what people point at, you just wana over react and be told your right.
anyway i personally feel kalth is the most OP when well played.
and that the 2 suggestions i named from angenoir and brunt are the ones i agree with more.
and personally i feel parry is in a decent place right now ( maybe a super mini nerf to forsaken and super mini buff to windfall for consistency)
Having said that, I'm not that good. I mean, I thought I was decent, being good enough to gold chain my combat and sword deck at will, but not enough to know all that meta in that video posted. So I'm definitely not even near the top echelon of Absolvers, but even at my level I know that forsaken are generally more difficult to deal with (well not me anymore, ever since switching over to mouse and keyboard, defensive abilities became much more difficult to pull off).
I don't really see a viable and balancing way of nerfing the parry to be on equal terms; instead, what about adding a new ability for each class? A new offensive or defensive maneuver can more easily balance out this situation, and add extra variety to the arena.
If you parry buffer, which you have no excuse to not do since there's no downside and the inputs are easy, you have a guaranteed high-damage attack (and I mean guaranteed, it's completely uncounterable), which outweighs any other reward for a defensive ability in the game by several times.
On top of that, it is objectively easier than windfall to use; any good player will use mostly horizontal attacks, which can only be dodged from a single direction with a tighter window than parrying. Windfall does very well against straight attacks, but is still objectively worse than parry by virtue of having a massively smaller reward; the stamina drain is irrelevant so long as shockwave is in the game. Khalt is somewhat easier, but has the smallest reward out of any ability, and stagger doesn't count because it sucks against anyone even mediocre (as a result of its overloaded back special making the rest of the kit have to be useless).
Reducing the maximum length of the parried attack to only allow medium-fast hits to be guaranteed would most likely balance the class. It would still be oppressive at high levels, but not quite as painful.
As a final point, feinting counters everything except for Stagger equally. This isn't a specific counter for parry, nor is it more effective against parry than any other style.
Sounds like a simple change in the IF/OR Function for parry. I wonder why they don't change that?
Coding is just a list of functions. Even if the dev team directly copied a generic-parry.ini file, these people do this for a living; hard-coded or not, I'm sure they can take apart and build a spankin' new parry code, if they were paid to do so.
Adding a condition for the parry command prompt, or making a general condition for which command to prioritize (i.e. an attack always initiates), then it should fix the problem.
I'm sure the task at hand is much more complicated with the added pressure of server stability and new game content.
It could be that the problem with parry really only arises at a high enough skill level (and at that point, we can work ways around it: git gud or de-rank), so getting more people to buy/come back to Absolver will take a higher priority. Since coding is very tedious work, it will take time to read through the errors and revamp the system. And considering this company has a game with a AAA potential and expectancy, they should be swamped.
Or it could be that the parry prompt actually was copied and there are legal issues, or they just don't give a sh*t.
I like to believe that they are trolling all of us.
To put this into the most concrete terms I can, without embarrassing myself by trying to use coding terms:
When you activate your parry ability, several things can happen. If you land it successfully, your opponent will be stunned for a time, while you will either activate a buffered (pre-cast) attack nearly instantly (which is parry buffering), or you will suffer an identical stun if you didn't activate an attack within the appropriate window of time, and either way you will gain a small amount of stamina. If you are in stun (from this, from hitstun, from blockstun, gravity, earthquake, or having your block broken), no actions can be taken of any kind.
If no attack connects during the active portion of your parry, there is a period of time where you cannot act called an aftercast, after which you will use any attack you attempted to buffer (usually; there's an additional technique called "option select" where if you input a dodge at a certain time you will dodge at the end of the parry aftercast instead of using the buffered attack, but will still cast a buffered attack if the parry is successful, which is sort of silly considering it essentially means that if you perform a certain set of inputs the game will automatically do the right actions at the optimal timing on your behalf).
It does seem that the devs want parry buffering in the game, as without it Forsaken is probably worse than Khalt or Windfall, as either of those can get a punish, even if it is a weak one, and have greater rewards on top of that (though still higher risk on both counts), and conceptually it's not the most problematic. It just has way too much of a reward, and should be dropped down to 80-90 damage range from the 120ish range of side kick in my opinion.
So from what I'm getting at...is that there is no IF/OR command or some kind of condition command at all. If a group of commands are received at roughly the same time as a parry command, then the engine just pushes them all through. hahaha
Then yea, I guess reducing the stun time duration will help. I wonder how this will affect the npc's as they use the same skills as us, and if it will make it more difficult for newbies.