Current Meta

edited October 2017 in General Discussions
Parry.(The best, easiest, and most rewarded Style. 50/50 guessing ontop of that if they don't know the moves coming.)

Grab Punch.(Really fast, hyper-armor, hits mid, can track depending on latency making dodging pointless. Parry is the best counter, but that's bad design if someone has to play a style to consistently beat one move.)
Manually switch to Grab Punch over and over for interesting results.(Stopping attacks are too specifically made, they do too low of damage, require the correct quadrant and are verticals)

Roll Back Fist(Or similar vertical avoid to counter most attacks and Guard Breaks in case you need to turtle up and have a button to dodge their guard break and counter attack at the same time. Also dis-heartens the player to go for Stopping attacks.)

It's getting pretty frustrating that this is all I'm fighting, it feels like player skill is thrown out the window, that I have to make a deck specifically to beat this, it's putting the entire deck system to shame when everyone's deck is ending up the same.
I deem it as a balance issue that risks making players leave, and frustrating new players from sticking around from a already harsh environment.

But I'm sure there are people who'll disagree with me without thinking.
Which is a shame, I want this game to be good, and I want it to get it's population back.


  • edited October 2017
    My Ideas for Balancing, I don't expect them to be taken in, but perhaps iterated on. I won't sugar coat that I'm a "Game Designer", I'm a person that wants the game to be good and plays it enough to understand it's issues.

    Parry• Slower Recovery on whiffed Parries to stop Consecutive Parry Spamming, potentially takes increased damage if they miss the parry. A vulnerable state, so it's less optimal to just go for 50/50 guesses, you won't win in the long run if you guess.
    This makes Feinting stronger as well in return, allowing feints and quick counter attacks to a whiff parry to inflict more damage, compared to hitting them with a quick attack and slowly widdling them down while risking getting parry buffered into Side Kick which will out-race you in Damage.

    Grab Punch(Or all charge attacks)• A crush threshold, Grab punch would be the weakest of the threshold. High damage attacks (depending on the gear being worn perhaps) will break the charge attack, without needing to rely on extremely fast hits to hit twice, or getting lucky and hitting them with a double attack at the same time they do grab punch.
    The other Charge attacks are slower and more predictable to avoid, grab punch is excluded from this due to it's speed and has only slightly lower damage to make up for that. It's far too powerful in other decks and is used as a skeleton key to problems the player should learn to figure out solutions to.

    Alternatively, the Stopping Attacks get a revamp so they're more used. Currently they're all Verticals that do extremely low damage. They were designed specifically to beat Charge Attacks, I feel that's a problem in their design.

    Roll Back Fist• I really don't have a good idea to fix this sadly, my biggest problem with Vertical Avoids is it being used in combination with the above, if you try to use a guard break, they can vertical avoid it.
    So situations of where the player Guards till you throw out a Guard Break, and counters the Vertical with a Vertical Avoid, rinse and repeat.
    Using slow horizontals to break their guard has the risk of easily being countered(Specially with Parry).

    I hope this helps anyone at Sloclap be aware of these issues that are rising more and more as people catch on.
  • Hey SHOKK,

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these balance changes! I'll be bringing your ideas to the team, however I can't promise that they'll be implemented.

    Thank you so much for bearing with us.
  • Glad someone mentioned these meta issues lol. Also woah its Shokk never forgot my first few rounds with you during launch week lol.

    Anyway, I agree immensely. Roll Back Fist and general strafing moves are absurdly prevalent because they pretty much circumvent most approaches unless you go for something real ballsy.

    Builds that feature Body Blow and Roll Back are pretty much constant, and punishing it requires building specifically for it because of the amount of moves these things avoid. Tons of moves are considered thrust for some reason. You pretty much can phase through Wallop Blow by moving your body into the fist with Roll Back. It looks incredibly stupid and doesn't make much sense since Wallop seems to come from an angle. I feel like to fix this would require changing whats thrust atm? Currently it seems like half the moves in every prospects repertoire are thrust and they just dive through the opponent like its a naruto fanfiction.

    Grab Punch I think needs a speed nerf. Yea its weaker than every other charge attack but it also hits faster than most medium blows and doubles as a charge attack out of a low stance. Are there even other charge attacks out of low stances? Needless to say its such an outlier in the charge attack tree with the sheer speed and similar utility you're pretty much guaranteed to find this one on someone if you do CTs for even just a few games. Not gonna lie, the crush threshold sounds gimmicky at best. I think adding more moves to the list of guard breaks/stopping attacks would help this immensely, because as you said, most of the stopping attacks kind of suck.

    Parry I think has been discussed immensely already. That beast needs a recovery frame increase. You get so many opportunities just mashing the general direction of where you assume an attack will come from. Mediocre knowledge of your enemies deck with the Parry Ability will pretty much lead to a win in most cases. It also can lead to some absurd combos, such as Parry -> Side Kick -> Front Kick -> Gravity -> Side Kick -> Front Kick. Add in Buffering and Option Select, it can fundamentally beat out feints if you just lab those two extra techs, making it absurdly powerful against pretty much everything. I like the addition of increased damage upon use though, as punishing whiffs with fast moves will actually be reasonable instead of doing sliver damage of like 30 and then giving them the opportunity to parry your next move for like 130+.

    Hopin' SloClap gets on these beasts, as they're super prevalent.
  • edited October 2017
    Sweeps can stop roll back fist, just don't start with jabs.

    Or wait your opponent to use roll back fist, then counter attack.
  • Hokagae said:

    Sweeps can stop roll back fist, just don't start with jabs.

    So building your deck specifically against it, which again, mitigates the use of the potential variety of the deck building system and instead replacing it with a single ultimate theoretical deck.

    You also can't wait for an opponent to use it if they just turtle it. The meta is very apparent. As far as returns go strafe moves are such an absurdly solid pick I haven't met a single person not using them, backing up, and doing the exact same setup again. I like the term "Skeleton Key".

    Keep in mind I'm not saying the meta is a see-all-win-all, I'm just saying its so apparently powerful it blatantly pushes people away from CTs.
  • Well it depends if your opponent uses it. You can equip an attack to counter it or use your defensive ability to counter it.

    It is your choice.

    If your opponent is a turtle and you know he'll use roll back fist as a starter, you should be able to counter it with your defensive ability then punish.
  • edited October 2017
    Hokagae is right. Although i do use rollback fist myself it is powerful but it can be easily countered with sweeps and or parries one can even dodge it with windfall if you just time it right. Also it is a pretty slow move so you can counter it with a slightly quicker attack that hits the body. There are plenty of ways to counter these side stepping moves. You dont need to set up your entire deck just to counter this one move like some people are saying...
  • edited October 2017
    The issue isn't they're unstoppable they're just so abhorrently powerful utility wise compared to other moves that they shit on 3/4 of most decks and then within said deck there's like the one leg sweep that will hit it.

    While you don't need to set up your deck to combat them, if you don't then you can pretty much have your opponent spam strafes at you for absurd results. Many people have their matches start with jabs and other fast moves that hit fast. Roll Back Fist punishes most initiators right off the bat. Constantly initiating with a strafing move can land you absurd dominance in a game and takes quite a dump on most neutral.
  • Windfall checking in.

    Parry is too easy to spam, but it's straightforward to dodge/block the opponent's counterhit. In my experience, a successful parry nets no more than one fast attack. Two if I'm drunk and my LT finger takes a break.

    Roll back is perfect. It's as fast as the other strafe moves, what makes it better is the confusing parry direction. Easily countered by any sweep and most horizontal kicks, or homework if you're parry mans.

    Grab punch is also perfect. If you get demolished by grab punch, try dodging sometime. If your opponent is turtsquad and holds LT until you throw a move, try feinting into stopper. I recommend Dwit Chagi, it's decently fast, has moderate range, and best of all is more homework for parry mans.

    Bottom line: meta decks may be scary, but one sweep, one stopper, and a pinch of patience isn't going to ruin your playstyle.
  • I don't even know where to begin with the post above, so I'ma just go in order.

    Tested time and time again, parry does not just lead into a single fast attack. It leads into a critically damaging move of over 120+.

    Roll back covers so many options and counters stoppers, guard breaks, straights and thrust and also punishes them for using them.

    Grab punch casts so fast I've seen players just hit with it once back up and do it again. Good luck dodging an almost instant casting charged attack with tracking? The best you can do is just trade with them and then they can just turtle up again for Grab Punch.
  • edited November 2017
    I've only seen the parry + side kick in a few instances, and it doesn't seem that every move can be punished with this. If I'm wrong about this and that's the case -- where a master of forsaken can block each and every move and punish with a side kick, then that would be broken. Is that possible?

    Roll back is fine -- it's one of the best counter moves for jabs, but I still use punches to initiate, and if you time it right, there's no problem with tracking the roll punch, or body blow, that I've found.

    Grab punch has also become almost completely non-threatening to me. I've seen it so much that as soon as I see someone start to stumble toward me, chin forward, I dodge to the side and punish it. If they spam it, then they get punished over and over, and I never find myself trading with it. It's blockable, too.

  • Grab punch is literally such a threat I just used it constantly and found myself netting wins. Its simply too fast and I can use it when I'm being pressured at random just because "waa this combo spooks me"

    The only guy to show me problems is in this video and its because he has Roll Back, which again, is another problem I feel persist in this game with the way strafing moves seem to be an end all by all.

  • first of all

    ew, weeb anime thumbnail

    second of all

    good fighting

    third of all

    parry is really not that good. I've parried people before, and before I can get a hit in, they're back to spamming me into a corner. Had to resort to timing a dodge and then just returning the favour with a kick-deck. All it does is stop someone in their tracks- it depends on their opening attack speed on how fast that paintrain can start moving again.
  • SΔND said:

    parry is really not that good. I've parried people before, and before I can get a hit in, they're back to spamming me into a corner. Had to resort to timing a dodge and then just returning the favour with a kick-deck. All it does is stop someone in their tracks- it depends on their opening attack speed on how fast that paintrain can start moving again.

    You can literally confirm anything faster than side kick, which ergo means anything for over 100 if you're just fucking around, and like 135 if you're optimal as hell.
  • After considering the sound advice in this thread, I have built a Forsaken deck with grab punch as an alt that is available after three different openers, two of which are roll back and surging.

    I'll return for an update if I ever lose a game again. So long, and thanks for all the tips!
  • Lmao @ lucentauri
    There you go! You pretty much have the same deck as everybody else now
  • There you go! You pretty much have the same deck as everybody else now

    You see the problem here though now, right? They give such good returns compared to any other move because they bully most other attacks.

    Idk how to really counter them effectively without using other meta techniques.
  • In the grab punch video your opponent kept moving into the grab and punch -- if he had stepped the other direction, he could have hit you while the momentum of the attack kept going, which is true of all charge attacks. There's also some good charge breaks that can stop that attack.

    If there's a problem with roll back fist being the first initiate attack, and you have a jab, then wait for them to send it out and then hit them when they stop strafing, or time the jab to catch them before they initiate it, or just control the combat distance better. You can use different timing if you keep getting caught in the strafing attacks, and catch them before or after they initiate them.

    Personally, I think people that rely on spammy tactics are sort of stuck in place skill-wise, and their defense falls apart when their attacks are stopped consistently. There are also meta moves that are in everyone's deck, and there are ways to not only dodge them, but punish them mid-animation. Not saying I win 100% of the time, but I don't think there's any way someone can cheese you out completely if you know your deck well, with any of these "tactics."
  • edited November 2017
    Yes of course just bait out the fastest charge attack in the game. You can clearly see that's what he is trying to do. The issue stands that its really hard.

    Also all stopping attacks are straights and can be punished extremely easy because they even have wind up animations. He even tries to do it in the video but grab punch is just so fast I can hit him anyway if I just space him out. With any other charged attack the utility is not as grand. There are significantly more returns with me spamming this single move than him trying to use counterplay options.

    The problem with rollback isn't it just counters jab, lows do that too. My problem with that is it cancels jabs, thrusts and verticals even if it means phasing through the move like a wizard.

    Again, not saying they're the end-all-be-all of techniques, I'm just saying mechanically they are far stronger comparatively to other things that should function with similar utility.
  • I would love to fight someone just spamming grab and punch, but usually people that do that spam all charge attacks in a row, which I agree is not fun to fight. However, there are charge stopping attacks -- not guard breaks, but charge attack breaks -- that work very well against the grab and punch, like the wing side kick, for example.

    I agree that dodging through all straight attacks is ridiculous -- and I don't like fighting people who's decks are all in on this, because I use a lot of straight attacks -- but I've reached the point where I don't care what people do in a match, I'm not changing my deck. Instead, I just try to figure out how to out-play spam and meta attacks. I have no charge attacks or stagger in my deck, and I face a lot of this stuff, and I win more matches than I lose without resorting to them. I also only have two moves that dodge vertical attacks, and one of them is the back roll fist, but it's not my initiate attack, because I've found that it isn't as versatile as a simple jab. As soon as I see the roll back fist as the first move in a deck, I have ways of dealing with it that usually involve controlling the distance.
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